Transformers: Ninjas in disguise!

[Shinryu]

Iro wo Shita Dansu wo Suru (To Dance with the Colors)
Rank: S
Type: Sumi Clan Jutsu/Ninjutsu/Supplementary
Handseals: 8
Chakra: High x2
Special: Lasts one IC turn plus one extra turn each time retrained, up to a maximum of five. Consumes one B ranked bottle of Ink or equivalent per use. User IS NOT completely invisible; merely extremely hard to spot unless seen in motion. Can still be seen clearly by doujutsu.
Description: Perhaps the penultimate Sumi clan jutsu, developed as a means of absolute subterfuge and allowing them unparalleled abilities as spies, Iro wo Shita Dansu wo Suru allows a Sumi clan member to essentially disappear to the human eye. This is accomplished by means of dousing their body in a layer of ink, and performing several handseals. This ink gains a mirror like appearance, and an insulating quality which bends and refracts light around it, causing anyone who views the user to merely see a distorted version of what lays behind them, as well as retains the chakra and other radiation given off from the body within it's field, masking them from sight. This technique is not a perfect invisibility, however, and if in motion, the user is still likely to be seen as a moving blob of refraction; however if remaining relatively still, or if masked by nightfall or a dimly lit area, the user becomes almost impossible to spot with the eyes.
Domain: Sumi Clan, Sumi Clan Tier 3 Mastery, Minu Ga Hana 'S'.

[Naitome]

1/2 Denied.

The reason; you're simply not going to be able to use any feasible Li Clan technique in order to fool/obfuscate dojutsu, because the medium you're using is ink. Even seeping into the pores, byakugan would simply see through the ink itself, and the Sharingan can see the flow of chakra through your skin, it's not going to be fooled by a little bit of ink, especially not in the rather ambiguous way you describe the process here. The biggest issue is that you're still using a technique, which uses chakra in order to try and change something, and this isn't a Kekkei Genkai bearing clan that can actually change their physical body through some in born power. There is simply no conceivable way to 'obscure' your tenketsu or chakra flow through the use of any outside substance or technique, unless you actually change every single aspect of how your body functions, similar to Kuro-Shiro, which no, Sumi Clan members cannot currently, and should not be allowed to do, especially not anywhere near the same scale.

[Shinryu]

The point is though that the ink forms a buffer between the chakra coil and the rest of the body, dampening it's appearance. Furthermore, no chakra is in use following the transformation, as I've stated. If you use chakra following that, then you've blown your cover. Furthermore, the way that "little bit of ink" you mentioned currently works also allows you to make a giant 30 foot tall, 15 foot wide whatever the hell you choose to draw, as well as lets it move in whatever manner it physically can, according to your design. Sure, there's chakra involved, but there's also chakra involved in the application of this technique as well, to which I point out, if you can physically stain an object such to the point that it's irremovable, why is it impossible to bond the ink to your chakra system? It's not changing the shape of the coil itself, just making it appear faint and thus undeveloped.

If you consider the technique ambiguous, I can explain it more in depth if you like, as to how the ink binds to the chakra coil.

As for Kekkei Genkai bearing clans, they likewise use techniques which use chakra in order to change something, "In-born power" or otherwise, about their personage, in order to hide themselves as well. And furthermore, the Kuro Shiro don't change how their bodies function when they mayfly. They meld with an object, but they retain the shape of their body and the ability to move it through any natural medium they choose so long as it hasn't been affected by someone else's chakra.

Furthermore, this isn't on the same scale AT ALL, as again, currently Kuro Shiro can use techniques while mayfly is in effect and are almost instantly capable of hiding themselves within any natural object, to flee or attack of spy as they so choose, for as long as they like, for next to no chakra cost. This technique physically changes your body to the point of it causing COMPLETELY DEBILITATING PAIN for up to Ten IC Turns, as well as lingering pain for thirty minutes afterward, has an incredibly high chakra cost, takes quite the amount of time to actually perform, has a set limit on how long it lasts, and what's more, you can't perform any jutsu or chakra enhanced movements while using the technique or it ends immediately. It's nowhere near the same scale as Kuro Shiro's mayfly and is only useful for infiltration and mole work, which is what it would have to be used for.

It's not some super OP jutsu that's going to let you look like someone's ninja buddy then perform some super jutsu behind their back and kill them. The pain of transforming makes it impossible for the user to move of their own volition. If we want to work out or remove the part about Doujutsu, because it's deemed unworkable, then fine, that can be ditched. I think it's BS, but if it's the difference between acceptance and denial, it can be ditched. Honestly though, at that point you might as well scrap the whole thing, because that's basically the only thing that makes it any different than a Henge, aside from providing physical substance, and not allowing techniques to be performed at the same time as it's active.

[Naitome]

Your chakra system, is much like a normal circulatory system, only it's composed of energy. Permanently staining an object =/= staining a system of moving energy. In plain terms, you cannot use a technique in any viable way to conceal your chakra circulatory system, unless you are doing it through either completely changing the biological composition of your body into something else (which without a kekkei genkai, no clan would/should be able to do), or using a massive amount of pure chakra to try and override a dojutsu's ability to distinguish between one form of energy and another, which also, wouldn't be a very legitimate way to operate. OOC is not IC, regardless of knowing what sharingan and byakugan do, there's no real way a Sumi Clan member, or any of them, would or should know how a dojutsu would do anything, and that's what you'd need to know before being able to make a technique to circumvent those things. Also; Dojutsu are not especially common in the ninja world, nor even necessarily here, given the ratio of those with them to those without them. It doesn't even make much sense that they'd spend any time at all developing a technique to basically COMPLETELY GO AROUND the point of even having a Dojutsu, when it's not something they'd expect to experience very often anyway, and by making it so that they can't really use chakra after its performed anyway, the ONLY thing you'd be accomplishing, if you could pull this off, would be causing someone to believe you were a normal citizen and not caring vs. not having this tech, and causing someone to know you'd performed a henge...but otherwise not caring.

The denial stands.

[Shinryu]

The point IS to become a normal citizen. Despite what you may think, there are some people who have a tendency to stroll into threads and powergame and metagame the fuck out of them simply because they can, as you have already no doubt experienced, I'm sure. Some of these people also have access to Doujutsu, or may gain access to them, and would no doubt likely try to use them for this very purpose, which necessitates having a technique more thorough than merely a Henge, so as to avoid being metagamed to death off bullshit reasoning.

Furthermore, I see nothing in Kuro Shiro about the chakra suppression technique changing Zetsu's biological make-up or using huge amounts of energy to change how they (The people attempting to view the Kuro-Shiro) distinguish one thing from another. All they do is emit a cocoon of chakra around them when buried, and supposedly that's enough to keep them hidden in anything, from anything no matter what they do while buried, for up to an infinite amount of retrains, so please tell me, why are you acting as though it's nigh impossible to cloak yourself, and where are you getting this reasoning from?

Furthermore, as to argument about why would I need something to hide from Doujutsu and why would such a technique exist without IC knowledge of how they work, you could use that EXACT SAME FUCKING REASONING as to question the need for the Kuro-Shiro to have a technique that hides them from detection. Would they have likely met any Uchiha or Hyuuga or Kagura in character and survived before creating the technique? Highly unlikely! And yet the technique remains. Why? Because THEY CAN. They hide in things. Nothing can see through it. It's canon. Does that mean that they should be the only ones who possess the ability? If so, then why?

This is what it all comes down to: Zetsu's "technique", or at least, his ability to remain undetected, is canon. Where as this is a custom which isn't. By the way it's described, Kuro Shiro aren't doing anything special, and yet you come in speaking your opinion on the matter and now it's somehow almost impossible to mask your chakra network unless you're a mutant or you have some technique which uses "Pure chakra" to make your network somehow indiscernible from something else (Which again, how does that make any sense? You're actively emitting chakra, ergo you're essentially saying "HEY, LOOK AT ME, I'M A GREAT BIG FUCKING 100W CHAKRA LIGHTBULB! COME STAB ME WITH SOMETHING SHARP!")



You can say what you like about it, but as far as things work here insofar, and given the issue I've brought up, we either need to address the Kuro-Shiro technique and fix it, or we can throw your argument about this technique out the window for being irrelevant and based on your opinion; which while possibly accurate, does not match the way current models on the site have already been shown to operate. I'm trying to be civil about this, but I feel like you're just being stubborn and ignoring what I'm saying because you have an idea about the way things work and the truth is that insofar as we have a measure of understanding, reality does not conform to that idea.

[Naitome]

1. Calm yourself, immediately. Your emotional attachment to making a single technique is a bit much.

2. Aside from the fact that Kuro Shiro ARE getting a revamp, which Addy is in the middle of making, Wood Suppression, works the way it does because they are, for lack of a better term, plant people. That is why, when they submerge with...another plant/earth based material, they are essentially undetectable. Because the technique is designed to make them...undetectable....it isn't focused around making them unreadable to dojutsu at all. Its about not being able to be detected, period. Your technique, as you've stated, is essentially for those with a dojutsu.

3. You're not 'throwing my argument' anywhere. 1/2 Denial still stands.

[Shinryu]

1. I am calm. I would appreciate it if you lost the patronizing attitude and stopped assuming I exhibit any moods. Just because I call something bullshit doesn't mean I've lost my marbles over it.

2. And I quote:

Kagerou (Mayfly)
Rank: C
Type: Supplementary / Clan Kekkei Touta / Mokuton Ninjutsu
Range: See special!
Handseals: Yes
Chakra: Mid [initial + upkeep]
Special: The range one can travel depends on the user's 'Mokusei Akuryou'. Because Kuro-Shiro are naturally one with Mokuton, they can remain inside a substance indefinitely without needing air, so long as they have the chakra to keep it up. They can only submerge themselves in natural substances and Mokuton made with their own chakra, but not anything made with someone else's chakra.
Description: Kagerou allows the user to merge their body with the ground (or sand) and any plant or tree large enough to conceal their size. They have the option to be fully submerged in the substance or only partially submerged. Then, using a network of organic matter they can travel through it at fast speeds.
Domain: Kuro-Shiro. Mokusei Akuryou 'C'.

Mokusei Yokuatsu (Wooden Suppression)
Rank: C
Type: Supplementary / Clan Kekkei Touta / Mokuton Ninjutsu
Range: Self
Handseals: No
Chakra: Mid [initial] / Low [upkeep]
Special: While using Kagerou to meld with the ground or tree, the Kuro-Shiro can use Mokusei Yokuatsu to suppress their chakra so that they cannot be detected. Not even sensors or chakra-seeing Doujutsu are capable of locating them. This suppression lasts for 1 turn to start and with each retraining lasts 1 more turn. Can be activated at will and ended at will, however, it requires a cooldown of 1 turn before it can be reused.
Description: When the Kuro-Shiro feels that they need to hide more fully than just being within a substance can provide them, they can mentally activate Mokusei Yokuatsu. The organic material around them forms a special barrier with their chakra, almost like a caccoon, that prevents their chakra from being detected. If used correctly, this technique can be a highly effective reconnaissance tactic.
Domain: Kuro-Shiro. Mokusei Akuryou 'C'. Kagerou.

Wooden suppression is not used to hide them from anything OTHER than Doujutsu and Kagura. It specifically says "When the Kuro-Shiro feels that they need to hide more fully than just being within a substance can provide them"

They can already hide from absolutely anything else by merely mayflying. Wooden suppression has NO OTHER PURPOSE EXCEPT to hide them from Doujutsu and Kagura, which are the only things that COULD detect them if they did mayfly. And again, as I've stated, there's a flaw in the way the technique works, by your own reasoning, as all they're doing is emitting a field of chakra. If Doujutsu can see all chakra, then they're just making themselves a huge target. If Addy fixes this in her revamp because you all come to a consensus on how chakra masking works, then fine, that's another issue that will be addressed at the time.

3. I said WE. Not I. The point was implicit that you would at least try to understand the points that I'm making here instead of having pointless banter and vainly reinforcing our own thoughts on the matter. I thought perhaps you might come to understand that there is a flaw in the reasoning that you've presented up to this point which I find glaringly obvious. Furthermore, you've done little to redress the other points I've made, such as why Kuro Shiro would need such a technique, despite the minimal likelihood of them understanding how Doujutsu or Kagura work, the fact that these techniques use chakra just the same as the one I've presented does to achieve their means, or why it is that you feel only Kekkei Genkai should possess this power?

If you could do this instead of ignoring the majority of what I've said to assert your authority and your opinion as the correct one, I would be thankful. I know you're a Head mod for a reason, but it certainly doesn't feel like you're being reasonable at all.

[Naitome]

I thought, from what I listed previously, you'd have the ability to gather the relevant logical information necessary to see why you're technique wouldn't work. I see now, that I was wrong. I'll attempt to break down here what the problems I see are.

Because Kuro-Shiro are naturally one with Mokuton,

That is the reason WHY they can emit a field of chakra and sink into other plant or plant-like matter and disappear without a trace. I don't understand why you require more information than that, to realize that a Sumi Clan member cannot, and should not, be able to do the same thing.

As I stated before, as a clan, the Kuro Shiro were designed to be the ultimate in Reconnaissance and Infiltration, because that has been their primary function in the one case (Zetsu) of their abilities we've been able to see from the manga/anime. In that reasoning, they were designed to be undetectable by ANY means, because they otherwise lack any real offensive power/threat. The Sumi Clan do not. As you stated before, you are able to create 30 foot tall, 15 feet wide, whatever the hell you want to draw, in order to both attack and defend yourself, and if RP'd wisely, will still be capable of quite effectively holding your own in battle. The Kuro Shiro, have a much harder time of doing so, because they are so supremely specialized for their field.

The other arguments you're bringing up are basically irrelevant, because you are focusing on the fact of being denied, instead of WHAT I am denying you for. Let me make it clearer here. In the way that you have created the technique, you CANNOT circumvent Dojutsu from being able to detect you, because it quite simply, wouldn't work the way you described it.

You could have made this into a suit of ink, underneath which was a layer of chakra that refracted light away from the body, so that chakra would then be able to move the ink however you wished and change your outside appearance, while forcing those with Dojutsu to not be able to see you at all, unless they deactivated it.

That would have been infinitely more acceptable, and a starting point to work on.

Instead, you tried to have ink pour into the pores of your body and wrap around a field of moving energy. You are paying far too much attention to trying to prove something that I already have explained to you to be nonsensical, instead of taking what I'm saying, and actually adapting creatively to the limitations i've expressed. This has not been you saying "I want to do this" and me saying "it's impossible", it's you writing "I want to do this, this way" and me saying "That way, is ridiculous.".

If you're calm, I certainly can't tell. Your use of profanity aside; if you don't want me to assume you're unnecessarily disturbed based on what you've written, try not to assume i'm being patronizing or have an attitude with what I've written.

Work something else out.

[Shinryu]

Again, you're stating that I'm of the opinion that Sumi members should be able to do something similar to Kuro Shiro, but the technique does not work in even remotely the same way. I never said anything to that effect, and you stating as much is just straw-manning everything I've said up to this point in an attempt to write it off.

Furthermore, you're just moving the goalposts as it were by stating now that Kuro Shiro can do what they do because they're made of wood. Sunagami can't just disappear into sand and become untraceable, nor can Hozuki simply disappear into water, so I don't see why being made of wood makes what they're capable of any more relevant to this conversation. Your issue before was the manner in which they hid themselves, and with the way you described it, this type of hiding does not fit your criteria, and, let's be honest, you would have an issue with its wording and would likely have brought it up in staff chat if you were around when it was first proposed/if you saw it being proposed that way now, would you not? That's what I'm getting at here. Regardless of what Kuro Shiro are capable of in Canon, you would take issue with it's wording, wouldn't you?


And as for their offensive capabilities, I've never argued what they are and aren't capable of; however, since we're now bringing this up, let me remind you that they also have the full mokuton tree open to them to use at their discretion, as well as a number of techniques that can be completely lethal to anyone afflicted by them, which, considering Kuro-Shiro are absolutely undetectable, doesn't make that hard to pull off. Just because they can't commit to hand-to-hand combat or be a bruiser as it were, doesn't make them any less capable of being effective fighters if played correctly.

As for the Sumi clan, Chouju Giga is literally their ONLY offensive jutsu. Yes, I can draw a thirty foot tall fifteen foot wide anythings limited to what I can imagine. Hell, I can draw two of them. Or I can draw six lions, or four big ass birds that can carry people. However Sumi members also cannot inherently hide from Doujutsu or Kagura or Kage Hebi or anything that can track them, and if by any chance they run into a taijutsu fighter with any measure of skill, unless they've got something or someone else to help them out, they're pretty fucked. They would be REGARDLESS of whether or not this jutsu is passed.

I don't see why bringing what either of these two clans are capable of into the discussion is relevant. They're both obviously tooled to infiltration and information gathering. If the issue lay in how I worded the technique and the method of how it tried to achieve what it was aiming to achieve, and I didn't pick up on that much, then I apologize. If that's all it was then that can be fixed, easily. My points were merely based around how you seemed to assume that your opinion on how the chakra system worked was indelible and flawless, when the reality around the site, as far as I was able to understand, based on what you said (Which I honestly agree with) seemed to show otherwise.

It was never a matter of thinking my opinion was more correct than yours, but merely me trying to show that the site didn't work the way either of us really wished it to, and that I was trying to make that point clear. Either way, I'll be fixing this now, and sorry if you felt the discussion got heated. I don't doubt your intelligence or your ability to reason; I merely thought you were just missing the point I was trying to get across in your haste to make your own points, and so I felt it necessary to try and bring your attention back to it. I guess it was just a case of miscommunication on either end.

[Shinryu]

Also, not to double post, but just wanted to share this really quickly:

You just gave me a fucking boss idea to use based off of the properties of dark matter and the visible color spectrum. Dunno if you meant to do that intentionally, but you did, so, Good job.

EDIT: Actually, now that I look at the changes I made, it kind of reminds me more of Otacon's stealth camouflage. Either way, thanks for the inspiration.

[addy-hime ♥]

1/2.

With the changes, it's nice. And stop bashing my Kuro-Shiro. ):

[/justify]

[Hotaru]

eh.

2.2